tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post4341188839947454045..comments2023-08-20T12:13:24.740+01:00Comments on Marmalade Sandwich: The Pope, the state, and freedom: Part 1Young Mr. Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16106889555211376281noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-24489014557634096102010-09-27T19:00:13.327+01:002010-09-27T19:00:13.327+01:00YMB,
//One can use the word "convert" t...YMB,<br /><br />//One can use the word "convert" to describe them both - but you are really talking about two different things.//<br /><br />Yes this is true. The picture is undoubtedly more complex then I was portraying it.<br /><br />//My experience, by the way, is that the most overzealous, extreme and dismissive people are people who have spent their whole life within one idealogical tradition, whether it is evangelicalism, Catholicism, Islam, atheism, socialism, or whatever.//<br /><br />Hmmm, I think we shall have to chalk this up to personal experience, because I have the opposite experience.<br /><br />But your thoughts on the degree of ideological movement that the convert has experienced, are entirely correct, and that probably does have a significant influence on the level of zeal.<br /><br />//Rubbish. Everybody knows that Rothbard is the author of Mozart was a Red.//<br /><br />lol, I didn't until you just mentioned it. Oh to have been in the room when Rothbard met Rand!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-56858405548849811432010-09-27T08:24:28.787+01:002010-09-27T08:24:28.787+01:00"you would have to be a pretty extreme politi...<i>"you would have to be a pretty extreme politics wonk to know who Rothbard is."</i><br /><br />Rubbish. Everybody knows that Rothbard is the author of <i>Mozart was a Red.</i><br /><br />;-)Young Mr. Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16106889555211376281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-18712229707802029002010-09-27T08:15:07.844+01:002010-09-27T08:15:07.844+01:00"converts tend to be overzealous, extreme, di...<i>"converts tend to be overzealous, extreme, dismissive"</i><br /><br />I've been reflecting on that one.<br /><br />In my opinion, it is difficult to generalise about "converts" because converts fall into different categories.<br /><br />A Christian who moves from one theological tradition to another, or from one ecclesiastical tradition to another (often fairly gradually) - is a very different animal from someone who comes to Christian faith from outside - especially if, for the latter, it involves major and dramatic changes of outlook.<br /><br />One can use the word "convert" to describe them both - but you are really talking about two different things.<br /><br />My experience, by the way, is that the most overzealous, extreme and dismissive people are people who have spent their whole life within one idealogical tradition, whether it is evangelicalism, Catholicism, Islam, atheism, socialism, or whatever.Young Mr. Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16106889555211376281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-30177315936222760562010-09-26T23:10:25.556+01:002010-09-26T23:10:25.556+01:00Albert,
//Good point. I think having a T-shirt wi...Albert,<br /><br />//Good point. I think having a T-shirt with M.N. Rothbard on it may raise some eye-brows for me too!//<br /><br />Nah, you would have to be a pretty extreme politics wonk to know who Rothbard is.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-43261161362498769042010-09-26T21:59:34.731+01:002010-09-26T21:59:34.731+01:00I am a bit uncertain about the "fan of pop Be...<i>I am a bit uncertain about the "fan of pop Benedict" bit, so may have to wear it back to front</i><br /><br />Good point. I think having a T-shirt with M.N. Rothbard on it may raise some eye-brows for me too!Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-2260974596390702442010-09-26T20:11:57.721+01:002010-09-26T20:11:57.721+01:00Albert,
//I'll get a T-shirt with that on, if...Albert,<br /><br />//I'll get a T-shirt with that on, if you get one from the Cardinal Ratzinger fan club!//<br /><br />Indeed. They do look like good T-shirts. I am a bit uncertain about the "fan of pop Benedict" bit, so may have to wear it back to front.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-72684178681872718582010-09-26T20:01:54.498+01:002010-09-26T20:01:54.498+01:00Thanks Indigomyth,
Yes, it's a good quotation...Thanks Indigomyth,<br /><br />Yes, it's a good quotation - though he's not as pithy as the Holy Father!<br /><br />I'll get a T-shirt with that on, if you get one from the Cardinal Ratzinger fan club!Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-584034076532690592010-09-26T18:14:08.273+01:002010-09-26T18:14:08.273+01:00Albert,
Somewhat late, and no doubt boring you wi...Albert,<br /><br />Somewhat late, and no doubt boring you with my constant reference to him, but thought this passage in the Ethics of Liberty would appeal to you:<br /><br />//Murder is murder, theft is theft, whether undertaken by one man against another, or by a group, or even by the majority of people within a given territorial area. The fact that a majority might support or condone an act of theft does not diminish the criminal essence of the act or its grave injustice.//<br /><br />M.N. Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty, page 164Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-75443708398480466072010-09-25T09:55:01.894+01:002010-09-25T09:55:01.894+01:00To you both,
converts tend to be overzealous, ext...To you both,<br /><br /><i>converts tend to be overzealous, extreme, dismissive</i><br /><br />I think I'm more joyful than zealous (the distinction is small but important) and so confident in the truth of Catholicism that I have no need to be dismissive. Moreover, Catholicism is quite unlike Evangelicalism in many respects. We are taught to rejoice in truth and goodness wherever it is found. It comes from the emphasis on nature/reason etc. that makes Catholicism so interested in philosophy.<br /><br /><i>might I be allowed to ask how long it is since you swam the Tiber</i><br /><br />Fairly recently. I wasn't among the 1990s group that swam after the ordination of women.Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-36388667942493073572010-09-25T08:50:18.614+01:002010-09-25T08:50:18.614+01:00"//Joseph Ratzinger: "Truth is not deter...<i>"//Joseph Ratzinger: "Truth is not determined by majority vote".//<br /><br />Yes, that is an excellent expression, perfectly summing up a libertarian position. If I were to have a t-shirt, then that would be a perfect slogan on it"</i><br /><br />It's a slogan that I like as well. <br /><br />Out of idle curiosity, and being a very nosy young bear, might I be allowed to ask how long it is since you swam the Tiber, Albert?Young Mr. Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16106889555211376281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-42769832368250911612010-09-24T22:36:58.632+01:002010-09-24T22:36:58.632+01:00Albert,
//Alas, no. Do you know it?//
I only kno...Albert,<br /><br />//Alas, no. Do you know it?//<br /><br />I only know of it. I was reading up on Vincent Nichols, and that is where he went to study before becoming an archbishop. I thought you might have come from a similar line.<br /><br />//Being a convert helps even more - I had to think so hard in order to be able to overcome my natural English suspicion of the Catholic Church. This of course makes it easier for me to explain the Catholic faith to others - I had to explain it to myself first!//<br /><br />Indeed, that can help. When I converted to libertarianism, I had to go through a process of learning. It was strange having to get rid of the neo-liberal tendencies that I had.<br /><br />I must say, I would not have you down as a convert. You do not really write like a convert - converts tend to be overzealous, extreme, dismissive (from my admittedly limited experience of evangelicals, and the "born-again"). The balance and evenness which you write with, I would have pinned more on a born-Catholic.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-25362893979553369272010-09-24T21:45:42.832+01:002010-09-24T21:45:42.832+01:00Indigomyth,
Have you perhaps been fortunate enoug...Indigomyth,<br /><br /><i>Have you perhaps been fortunate enough to study at the English College in Rome?</i><br /><br />Alas, no. Do you know it?<br /><br /><i>It does not surprise me, given the level of knowledge and depth of understanding that you have of Catholic doctrine.</i><br /><br />Being a convert helps even more - I had to think so hard in order to be able to overcome my natural English suspicion of the Catholic Church. This of course makes it easier for me to explain the Catholic faith to others - I had to explain it to myself first!Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-30566108612984777322010-09-24T21:37:33.422+01:002010-09-24T21:37:33.422+01:00Albert,
//Yes, I am officially involved in the Ca...Albert,<br /><br />//Yes, I am officially involved in the Catholic Church being (with Pope Benedict) "a humble worker in the Lord's vineyard".//<br /><br />It does not surprise me, given the level of knowledge and depth of understanding that you have of Catholic doctrine. Have you perhaps been fortunate enough to study at the English College in Rome?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-18820573816066742122010-09-24T20:31:25.579+01:002010-09-24T20:31:25.579+01:00Indigomyth,
If I were to have a t-shirt, then tha...Indigomyth,<br /><br /><i>If I were to have a t-shirt, then that would be a perfect slogan on it</i><br /><br />Well you can buy one <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/benedictxvifc.352086059" rel="nofollow">here</a>!<br /><br />Yes, Damien Thompson is good for laugh, and sometimes good for news, but there are clearly problems.<br /><br />Yes, I am officially involved in the Catholic Church being (with Pope Benedict) "a humble worker in the Lord's vineyard".Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-41752977209335382972010-09-24T20:09:49.171+01:002010-09-24T20:09:49.171+01:00Albert,
//Joseph Ratzinger: "Truth is not de...Albert,<br /><br />//Joseph Ratzinger: "Truth is not determined by majority vote".//<br /><br />Yes, that is an excellent expression, perfectly summing up a libertarian position. If I were to have a t-shirt, then that would be a perfect slogan on it (after the Rothbard quotes, obviously).<br /><br />Anyway, Albert, thank you for providing an excellent Catholic voice and perspective on these matters. Given that the only other Catholic who I (occasionally) read is the utterly useless Damian Thompson, you make a refreshing and enlightening break. But, I suppose Damian's tittle-tattle, and wafer-thin (no pun intended) "Catholo-gossip" appeals more to the general Catholic population than the thoughtful and measured perspective that you have.<br /><br />Out of curiosity, are you officially involved with the Catholic church? Or are you just a keen supporter, as it were?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-78050761351958183652010-09-24T19:51:28.546+01:002010-09-24T19:51:28.546+01:00Re Leo XIII. The papal decree was "irreforma...Re Leo XIII. The papal decree was "irreformable", therefore, it probably isn't within the power of the HF to change it now. In the very least, he would have to make clear that Leo's document was correct at the time, but that Anglican orders had become valid subsequently (e.g. by the participation of validly ordained bishops in Anglican ordinations subsequent to 1896 - the so-called "Dutch touch"). But that would be a very complicated and very likely, unfruitful exercise. Moreover, the validity of Anglican orders has arguably been further compromised by women's ordination, which implies Anglicans are not intending to ordain to the same Catholic priesthood as Catholics ordain to.Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-21885845820892289762010-09-24T19:35:29.721+01:002010-09-24T19:35:29.721+01:00Indigomyth
Is this in conflict with his "hig...Indigomyth<br /><br /><i>Is this in conflict with his "high regard"?</i><br /><br />Fair question. That's the paradox of Anglicanism. In some respects Anglicans retained much that is of value from a Catholic point of view. On the other hand they also did some pretty terrible things. They mangled their orders, abolished monasteries, burnt images and relics etc. Having a high regard for Anglicanism doesn't mean one signs up to all that. It means one respects the history of Anglican patristic scholarship, it's liturgical worship, pastoral ministry. Moreover, in speaking of a tradition he has a high regard for, I was referring mainly to the Anglo-Catholics, who, as their name implies have retained more that is of value from our point of view than (say) the Evangelicals or the liberals. But at the same time, I could say I have a high regard for evangelicals, while obviously having serious concerns about a number of aspects.<br /><br /><i>I find the idea of any "majority" deciding what I can and cannot do, say or worship, whether it is an atheist, Christian or Muslim, to be highly<br /> uncomfortable.</i><br /><br />Like YMB, you sometimes sound so Catholic. Consider this line from one Joseph Ratzinger: "Truth is not determined by majority vote". Let me be clearer, by good secularism, I mean one that does not exclude a voice simply because of its religious stance. How one deals with the dissonance is another matter.Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-45353308834273324242010-09-24T18:06:21.048+01:002010-09-24T18:06:21.048+01:00NB: Regarding the Apostolicæ Curæ. Granted it was ...NB: Regarding the Apostolicæ Curæ. Granted it was something he had to do for Leo 13, however, since he became Pope, he has not retracted or altered it, so my question stands.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-22291014080730086632010-09-24T18:04:26.814+01:002010-09-24T18:04:26.814+01:00Albert,
//just a generous response to a plea from...Albert,<br /><br />//just a generous response to a plea from those in a tradition that this particular Pope already had a high regard for.//<br /><br />Hmm, but as far as I am aware (and cribbing something from the latest post over at Cranmer):<br /><br />//In 1998, the then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), issued a commentary which listed Leo XIII’s declaration in Apostolicæ Curæ that Anglican orders are ‘absolutely null and utterly void’ //<br /><br />Is this in conflict with his "high regard"?<br /><br />//I meant the kind of secularism that allows all voices a say.//<br /><br />Hmmm, perhaps. As I have mentioned before, I find the idea of any "majority" deciding what I can and cannot do, say or worship, whether it is an atheist, Christian or Muslim, to be highly uncomfortable. But I think this is more to do with a suspicion of democracy as a whole, rather than secularism particularly.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-48820192314382001082010-09-24T16:45:10.343+01:002010-09-24T16:45:10.343+01:00Thanks Indigomyth,
Well, depends on the model of ...Thanks Indigomyth,<br /><br /><i>Well, depends on the model of secularism that we use.</i><br /><br />You are absolutely right to pick me up on that - I was writing in haste. I don't meant the kind of secularism that allows all voices a say. That kind of secularism I agree with, and so does the Pope. I mean the kind of secularism that is a metaphyscial ideology - imposing a view of the world as merely matter and restricting the voices of those who refuse such nihilistic reductionism. In such a context, I think moral views are excluded, because moral views are not material or about material things. The former view of secularism is not relatavistic, the latter is by itself.<br /><br />Regarding anarchy, I think it depends on how closely you want to define it. In general terms, it could go in either category (secular or theocratic). It certainly fits in the secular line, as I have said, but if one believed in a deity which was capricious then that too would be anarchic.<br /><br /><i>To what extent do you think the visit was deliberately intended to attract or encourage disgruntled Anglicans to "swim the Tiber"?</i><br /><br />Clearly it wasn't so designed from the outset - since the timing is all wrong: the Vatican needed to wait for HMG to invite the holy Father. I don't think the visit myself had much to do with that. I can't see any particular content to it that flags up that kind of concern - though I haven't looked closely. I think he wanted to encourage Catholics and challenge the secularist elements in the state. And I think he succeeded in this.<br /><br />But also - and contrary to what the media want us to think - the Catholic Church has simply been responding to those Anglicans (bishops in the first instance) who approached the Holy See and asked for a warm welcome. There is no "plot" on the part of the Vatican to poach, just a generous response to a plea from those in a tradition that this particular Pope already had a high regard for.Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-80619224351416866732010-09-24T16:17:52.491+01:002010-09-24T16:17:52.491+01:00Oh and a further question, if you don't mind, ...Oh and a further question, if you don't mind, re the Pope's visit.<br /><br />To what extent do you think the visit was deliberately intended to attract or encourage disgruntled Anglicans to "swim the Tiber"? That the Vatican would have been aware of these factors seems certain, but how far would they have designed the visit to appeal, or would it have been a case of "we will do it the Catholic way, and if it appeals to some, then so be it"?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-25184667374303324262010-09-24T16:12:33.911+01:002010-09-24T16:12:33.911+01:00Albert,
//I would have thought that if they have ...Albert,<br /><br />//I would have thought that if they have those characteristics, it is impossible to believe in them on the secular model.//<br /><br />Well, depends on the model of secularism that we use. However, we have to avoid the conflation of "secularism" and "relativism". The former (in its true sense) is good, the latter is evil. True relativism says that the mutilation of girls, the stoning of woman, the execution of Christians, is all a matter of "culture" or "social norms", and ought to be respected in its own right. Pah!<br /><br />I was thinking on this, and I was wondering if we could consider a state of pure political anarchy, or anarcho-capitalism, as "secular". That it would have no overarching personal moral philosophy to impose on individuals, is sure. Or does "anarchy" exist on a separate spectrum to the secular - theocratic line. Your thoughts?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-83868061802794218722010-09-24T12:52:48.622+01:002010-09-24T12:52:48.622+01:00Surely we can test human nature in a laboratory - ...<i>Surely we can test human nature in a laboratory - examining psychology, biochemistry, neurology etc...I would be hesitant to secure morality too firmly in "Human nature", because at least part of human nature (at times I think the bulk), consists of nothing more than bestial urges and base desires.<br /></i><br />Yes and no. I think you are talking about testing <i>some</i> parts of human nature - but I am talking about the whole thing. We are not on my account reducible to passions and appetites.<br /><br /><i>I do not believe his visit will alter the political or social vista of the country one bit</i><br /><br />I'm not so sure. The immediate response was the PM telling the Holy Father how religious we all were! But look, I don't think the Holy Father was looking to make Britain Catholic, he was wishing to point out some of the flaws and contradictions in the more aggressive kinds of secularism. We seem between the three of us here, to have reached a measure of agreement on this, and I think the question of what our morality is based on has been heard. We shall see.<br /><br /><i>given that human rights are universal, pure, and incorruptible, I would say that we are bound to build a sky castle.</i><br /><br />I would have thought that if they have those characteristics, it is impossible to believe in them on the secular model.Alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12407051721186824991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-14596752299024008872010-09-23T23:54:32.015+01:002010-09-23T23:54:32.015+01:00Indeed, on further reflection, given that human ri...Indeed, on further reflection, given that human rights are universal, pure, and incorruptible, I would say that we are bound to build a sky castle.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9001121738545655196.post-84107715039063191282010-09-23T23:49:39.666+01:002010-09-23T23:49:39.666+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18251711519070770372noreply@blogger.com